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 In Order To Feel Good, Do We Have To Do Good?

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Posted - 09/21/2007 :  15:29:44  Show Profile  Visit Administrator's Homepage
(Our "Celebrity Culture" Destroys Celebrities)
Dear members,

I would like to discuss whether we have to do good in order to feel good. Is ethical or good social behavior a prerequisite for good mental health?

Thus I would like to explore with you the field of ethics (or what constitutes good social behavior).

SLAVERY

It appears that ethical behavior slowly evolved. The ancient world never even questioned if slavery was unethical. For example, nowhere in the Bible does it say that God was opposed to slavery.

    “When you buy a Hebrew slave, six years shall he serve; and in the seventh shall he go out free, for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and the children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the slave shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: then his master shall bring him unto God, and he shall bring him to the door or unto the door-post, and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.”

    —Exodus 21:2-6.

    “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.”

    —Ephesians 6:5-6.
Likewise, from my reading of the Qu'ran (or Koran), nowhere does it say that Allah was opposed to slavery. Muhammad himself took numerous slaves, mostly women, as spoils of war.

Likewise Buddha never preached against social inequality; he only declared its irrelevance to salvation. Buddha neither tried to abolish the caste system nor to do away with slavery.

Ancient Greek philosophers never questioned the ethics of slavery. Socrates and Plato taught their students to question everything, but they themselves never questioned slavery.

There's no point in looking in the Ancient World for examples of individuals who questioned slavery, because none did.

It was not until the Age of Enlightenment, in 18th-century Europe, that people started to question if slavery was ethical. There was a deeply religious British statesman, William Wilberforce, that fought most of his life to abolish the slave trade in Britain. Due primarily to his efforts, in 1807 Britain was the first nation in history to abolish slavery ( http://www.amazinggracemovie.com ).

It seems incredible that it took humans so long to realize that a simple thing like slavery was totally unethical. Yet, we have a modern equivalent of this moral blindness.

WAR

Even today, the majority of the world believes that there is no escaping war.

Currently, the USA spends almost more on its military budget than all other nations of the world combined spend on their military. Yet few Americans question why such a massive military is necessary.

The West is now at war in Iraq and Afghanistan. The President of France last week threatened war with Iran. Yet few question the legality or ethics of such military adventurism. Pre-emptive war (attacking another country before they attack you) is now tolerated by the West (even though it is highly unethical).

Recent history shows that nations can not achieve their objectives by force of arms. The USA, with its massive military, can't conquer a small nation like Iraq. War now is ineffective and unethical but we are unable to see this (just like the Ancient World couldn't see that slavery was unethical).

CELEBRITY WORSHIP

Celebrity worship is another example of how we can be morally blind to unethical or maladaptive behaviors that our culture condones.

Consider the tragic plight of many celebrities whose fame destroys them. When we see these troubled celebrities self-destruct, we are witnessing the destruction of a fellow human being. Yet how many of us can see that it is our "celebritiy culture" that is largely to blame.

Our culture literally makes idols out of its celebrities. We worship success and wealth, and our culture showers fame and fortune on our celebrities. Some troubled celebrities become greedy, selfish, and believe they are superior to others and above the law.

Like super-novas, these troubled stars then self-destruct. They become addicted to the excessive attention and approval they receive. They become recklessly impulsive and pleasure-seeking. Their life becomes a series of "love-hate" relationships as they become more confused about their own identity. Finally, they lose sight of who they really are, and where they are going in life. If, by this point, they are also addicted to alcohol or drugs, their destruction is almost guaranteed. Our culture of adoration and pleasure-seeking destroys them. Yet few question this aspect of our culture.

WHAT IS MY POINT?

I believe that we have to do good to feel good.

I believe that:
  • There are adaptive (i.e., positive) social behaviors that can improve our mental health and make us feel good.

  • There are maladaptive (i.e., negative) social behaviors that can undermine our mental health and make us feel bad.
I believe that most of us are unaware of our maladaptive social behaviors. Worse still, some individuals may even believe that adaptive social behaviors (like forgiveness, empathy, tolerance etc.) are actually bad or unnecessary. For example, how much forgiveness, empathy or tolerance do our soldiers feel towards those Iraqis or Afghanis who resist our occupation of their homeland?

I have listed the adaptive social behaviors (rated as "0") which I believe promote good mental health ( http://www.mentalhealth.com/qol/IMHQOLScale_4.pdf ). Likewise, I have listed the maladaptive social behaviors (rated as "2") which I believe increase mental illness.

I am not arguing that mental illness is solely caused by maladaptive social behaviors. I am just arguing that mental illness (even those disorders which are primarily biological) can be dramatically worsened by certain maladaptive social behaviors. For example, Schizophrenia (a largely biological disorder) can be dramatically worsened if the individual is lonely, suspicious, and feeling victimized.

Also, my argument is that mental illness can be improved by increasing adaptive social behaviors.

I am looking forward to your comments on this topic. In particular, I would like to know if you agree with my lists (and definitions) of adaptive and maladaptive social behaviors.

Phil Long M.D.
Administrator

 (World Military Spending)
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Niney
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Posted - 09/23/2007 :  14:00:07  Show Profile
Hi Dr. Long,
I was very interested in the information on military spending because I, too, am concerned about the direction our world is taking. I am waiting, not too patiently for the birth of my first grandchild sometime in the next 3 weeks or so and this makes these issues even more important to me.
I am also interested in the good/ethical vs maladaptive/unethical social behaviours.
I have mentioned my problem with a couple of them before but thought I would just reiterate it here. The two I have trouble accepting as fitting are leadership and peacemaking. I don't believe that people who do not own these qualities are either maladaptive or unethical. I believe that not everyone is cut out to be a leader or peacemaker nor do they need to be in order to attain good mental health. I don't believe we need a world where everyone is a leader. I actually believe that this could cause chaos. Some people are just naturally more outgoing than others but that doesn't mean they are necessarily in better mental health than quieter people, in my opinion.
Niney

"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible."
Helen Keller


I agree Niney,

On this scale, each of us probably has a few "1" ratings. I have two "1" ratings for Obsessive-Compulsive Personality. It appears that these "1" ratings only detect relatively harmless personality traits.

When I give this scale to my patients, it appears that only the "2" ratings accurately detect a personality disorder.

There are some individuals that have all "0"s on their Social Quality of Life Scale. They are very socially effective, and have leadership and peacemaking skills. Their leadership and peacemaking skills are manifest in the small social groups they belong to; hence they don't have to be leaders of industry or politics before they qualify for a "0" in "leadership" or "peacemaking".

The traditional role of a parent supervising his/her children and maintaining family harmony would qualify as good "leadership" and "peacemaking".

So you may qualify for good "leadership" and "peacemaking" Niney. And even if, like me, you have a few "1"s on this scale; all it tells you is that you have a few harmless personality traits that make you who you are.

Phil Long M.D.
Administrator



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EmergingArtist
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Posted - 09/24/2007 :  12:03:36  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by PhilLongMD

Dear members,

I would like to discuss whether we have to do good in order to feel good. Is ethical or good social behavior a prerequisite for good mental health?

...

Phil Long M.D.
Administrator








Hi Dr. Long,
I have a whole stream of thoughts in reaction to what you present in your thread here "In Order to Feel Good, Do We Have to Do Good?"

Let me start by saying that I've been going to individual talk therapy weekly with a psychologist for about three years now. (and twice weekly for approx. 11 months out of the three years) In fact I'm headed to a session as soon as I post this.

When I self-reflect in therapy sessions and when I self-reflect in response to therapy sessions, things get topsy-turvy.



I don't have time to elaborate really. In brief, --for me, it's very much intertwined. That is, good social skills and good mental health are more circular rather than linear. And...
quote:

Is ethical or good social behavior a prerequisite for good mental health?


For me, yes, ethical/good social behavior seems to promote good mental health. I had bad models and examples thrown in my face to begin with though...so, ...

What do you think of the ~circular rather than linear~ statement?




I look forward to putting more of my thoughts out there and reading others' ideas on the topic. Thanks for the forums to do so.

-EA






unemployed
thirty-one-year-old Korean-American
married woman
diagnosed bipolar 1993



You're right EA,

It is circular: when we do good, we feel good, which makes it more likely that we will do more good etc.

Phil Long M.D.
Administrator

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EmergingArtist
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Posted - 09/24/2007 :  15:16:03  Show Profile
On second thought, I think I meant "a coil" or spiral--imagine tracing the coils of a "Slinky" toy...

It is moving forward in time...and within that forward movement, the following in my mind spiral within that--I might do good and then feel good; I might do good and then feel bad; I might do bad and then oddly enough, feel good; I might do bad and then feel bad; I might do good and oddly enough, feel bad; then I might feel bad and then do good and bad; then I might feel bad and do bad; then I might feel bad and do very very very good; then I might feel very very very good and then do very bad; then I might feel
confused
mad
dysfunctional
crazy.

btw, I've done all of the above and more variations of that b/c, I suppose, I was EXCELLENT at following directions and doing what I was told--(by my dysfunctional parents and other dysfunctional persons who had power over me).

-EA

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Niney
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Posted - 09/24/2007 :  23:05:34  Show Profile
Dr. Long,
Thanks for your response. I hadn't thought of the parenting role as far as the leadership/peacemaking was concerned. As far as the 1's go, I'm with you, I definitely have my quirks. Life would not be as interesting without them, would it?

Niney

"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible."
Helen Keller
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EmergingArtist
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Posted - 09/25/2007 :  06:52:37  Show Profile
quote:

You're right EA,
It is circular: when we do good, we feel good, which makes it more likely that we will do more good etc.
Phil Long M.D.
Administrator






Hi Dr. Long,
I don't know if I'm right or not. But to continue with the discussion, I want to add that for me, things have gotten very out of whack at times.

Personal example: When I was 15, I volunteered for a program with other youth volunteers to go to a single mother/battered women's shelter in Minneapolis to help out and give companionship. Wholeheartedly, I believed I was "doing good." However, by the end of the program, I had gotten quite a bit of negative feedback for doing what I honestly believed to be doing good.

I had been friendly to the shelter people; I did what I felt was very caring, and I expressed warmth. And I did my best to keep peace amongst my fellow volunteers, etc. My friendliness was met with hostility by many of the women, and my efforts to keep peace were looked at with disdain by several of the volunteers, as if I was being too much of a goody-goody as far as following what the volunteer leaders were proposing and following the guidelines. And so I became confused as to what was "good."

The feedback I got was pretty mixed and inconsistent. What I gleaned from that experience of volunteering (for what I believed was doing good)--was that as a result of being friendly, caring, and peace-making, I felt rejected and confused--I felt bad as a result of doing good.





Very simply put--I did good. I felt bad. I didn't want to do more good. (At least right away). Then it got very muddled.

I don't always know when what I do is "good." I don't always know when what I feel is "good." How do you define "good"?


-EA




unemployed
thirty-one-year-old Korean-American
married woman
diagnosed bipolar 1993



At least you tried to do good EA,

The "good" (or adaptive) social behaviors, I believe, are those rated "0" on my "Social Quality of Life Scale" at:

http://www.mentalhealth.com/qol/IMHQOLScale_4.pdf

So "doing good" would equate to doing those social behaviors rated as "0". What do you think EA; does this scale measure "doing good"?

Phil Long M.D.
Administrator

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EmergingArtist
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Posted - 09/26/2007 :  07:36:11  Show Profile
quote:
At least you tried to do good EA,

The "good" (or adaptive) social behaviors, I believe, are those rated "0" on my "Social Quality of Life Scale" at:

http://www.mentalhealth.com/qol/IMHQOLScale_4.pdf

So "doing good" would equate to doing those social behaviors rated as "0". What do you think EA; does this scale measure "doing good"?

Phil Long M.D.
Administrator






Hi Dr. Long,
I had an immediate reaction to what you've written: "At least you tried to do good..." I think I was trying to appear good so that other people would do good to me.

...




I will be 32 years old very soon. Much of the time, I wait, like a little child left at a bus stop--I wait for the world at large to take care of me--be good to me. Then in the meantime while I am waiting to be taken care of, I try my best to "look good"--(to appear as if I'm a "good person" who deserves to have good done unto me). It is hugely difficult for me to "do good" when I am hungry, (actually starving)--for others to do good to me. And so I feel not good and don't want to do good.

I think I can answer your question now. Does your Social Scale measure "doing good"? Yes. But I wish it wasn't an accurate measure of doing good, because I feel: a)I haven't been good enough to get good treatment from others and b)I am not good enough to do good.

I would like feedback from you and my fellow members about my above opinions. What does everybody think?



-EA










unemployed
thirty-one-year-old Korean-American
married woman
diagnosed bipolar 1993

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sistergal2
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Posted - 08/22/2008 :  16:44:12  Show Profile
EA - I want to commend you for doing good volunteering at age 15--I am sure the situation was an eye opener for you and at that tender age, comments are so hurtful. As for waiting for the bus stop in life, wait or don't wait. What I mean is you have choices and are certainly worth the initiative to choose to walk, ride the bus or drive your car alone or with others -- it is really your choice. We can do good first by taking care of ourselves. We love the Golden Rule -- treat others as you want to be treated -- but often we don't think to care for ourselves first, especially women. Just know that the trying is the real payoff because not only because we give to others, but because we receive those good endorfins -- fertile ground for mental health. Others may be jealous of our abilities or others may not understand why we are volunteering but please know this: hostile expressions stem from a person's problems waiting to be discovered. If we take care of ourselves by finding something to enjoy having ME TIME, we express our individual inner core beliefs. I found out at age 58 that I am Bipolar 2 with Generalized Anxiety Disorder. Waiting on others to come to me or take care of me, worrying about what others thought, etc. etc. did me absolutely no good whatsoever. Don't be afraid to take care of you -- you are really the Best Friend you could ever have! You have your life ahead of you so 'dance like no one is looking' -- you will have fun -- I promise because I have learned to dance only later in life.
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davidt
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Posted - 08/22/2008 :  17:09:40  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Administrator

Dear members,

I would like to discuss whether we have to do good in order to feel good. Is ethical or good social behavior a prerequisite for good mental health?

Thus I would like to explore with you the field of ethics (or what constitutes good social behavior).

SLAVERY

It appears that ethical behavior slowly evolved. The ancient world never even questioned if slavery was unethical. For example, nowhere in the Bible does it say that God was opposed to slavery.

    “When you buy a Hebrew slave, six years shall he serve; and in the seventh shall he go out free, for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and the children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the slave shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: then his master shall bring him unto God, and he shall bring him to the door or unto the door-post, and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.”

    —Exodus 21:2-6.

    “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.”

    —Ephesians 6:5-6.
Likewise, from my reading of the Qu'ran (or Koran), nowhere does it say that Allah was opposed to slavery. Muhammad himself took numerous slaves, mostly women, as spoils of war.

Likewise Buddha never preached against social inequality; he only declared its irrelevance to salvation. Buddha neither tried to abolish the caste system nor to do away with slavery.

Ancient Greek philosophers never questioned the ethics of slavery. Socrates and Plato taught their students to question everything, but they themselves never questioned slavery.

There's no point in looking in the Ancient World for examples of individuals who questioned slavery, because none did.

It was not until the Age of Enlightenment, in 18th-century Europe, that people started to question if slavery was ethical. There was a deeply religious British statesman, William Wilberforce, that fought most of his life to abolish the slave trade in Britain. Due primarily to his efforts, in 1807 Britain was the first nation in history to abolish slavery ( http://www.amazinggracemovie.com ).

It seems incredible that it took humans so long to realize that a simple thing like slavery was totally unethical. Yet, we have a modern equivalent of this moral blindness.

WAR

Even today, the majority of the world believes that there is no escaping war.

Currently, the USA spends almost more on its military budget than all other nations of the world combined spend on their military. Yet few Americans question why such a massive military is necessary.

The West is now at war in Iraq and Afghanistan. The President of France last week threatened war with Iran. Yet few question the legality or ethics of such military adventurism. Pre-emptive war (attacking another country before they attack you) is now tolerated by the West (even though it is highly unethical).

Recent history shows that nations can not achieve their objectives by force of arms. The USA, with its massive military, can't conquer a small nation like Iraq. War now is ineffective and unethical but we are unable to see this (just like the Ancient World couldn't see that slavery was unethical).

CELEBRITY WORSHIP

Celebrity worship is another example of how we can be morally blind to unethical or maladaptive behaviors that our culture condones.

Consider the tragic plight of many celebrities whose fame destroys them. When we see these troubled celebrities self-destruct, we are witnessing the destruction of a fellow human being. Yet how many of us can see that it is our "celebritiy culture" that is largely to blame.

Our culture literally makes idols out of its celebrities. We worship success and wealth, and our culture showers fame and fortune on our celebrities. Some troubled celebrities become greedy, selfish, and believe they are superior to others and above the law.

Like super-novas, these troubled stars then self-destruct. They become addicted to the excessive attention and approval they receive. They become recklessly impulsive and pleasure-seeking. Their life becomes a series of "love-hate" relationships as they become more confused about their own identity. Finally, they lose sight of who they really are, and where they are going in life. If, by this point, they are also addicted to alcohol or drugs, their destruction is almost guaranteed. Our culture of adoration and pleasure-seeking destroys them. Yet few question this aspect of our culture.

WHAT IS MY POINT?

I believe that we have to do good to feel good.

I believe that:
  • There are adaptive (i.e., positive) social behaviors that can improve our mental health and make us feel good.

  • There are maladaptive (i.e., negative) social behaviors that can undermine our mental health and make us feel bad.
I believe that most of us are unaware of our maladaptive social behaviors. Worse still, some individuals may even believe that adaptive social behaviors (like forgiveness, empathy, tolerance etc.) are actually bad or unnecessary. For example, how much forgiveness, empathy or tolerance do our soldiers feel towards those Iraqis or Afghanis who resist our occupation of their homeland?

I have listed the adaptive social behaviors (rated as "0") which I believe promote good mental health ( http://www.mentalhealth.com/qol/IMHQOLScale_4.pdf ). Likewise, I have listed the maladaptive social behaviors (rated as "2") which I believe increase mental illness.

I am not arguing that mental illness is solely caused by maladaptive social behaviors. I am just arguing that mental illness (even those disorders which are primarily biological) can be dramatically worsened by certain maladaptive social behaviors. For example, Schizophrenia (a largely biological disorder) can be dramatically worsened if the individual is lonely, suspicious, and feeling victimized.

Also, my argument is that mental illness can be improved by increasing adaptive social behaviors.

I am looking forward to your comments on this topic. In particular, I would like to know if you agree with my lists (and definitions) of adaptive and maladaptive social behaviors.

Phil Long M.D.
Administrator






Hi Doctor Long,

Most, if not all of my life, I have tried with various modicums of success, to do good works for others. Not just to be charitable, for I must confess feeling good about it. It is what drives me. For I have long maintained that in helping others we are indeed helping ourselves in the process. So yes, I have had a personal agenda for doing so.

I think that it is very much apart of human nature. There are of course great men and women, throughout history who have not been motivated by self indulgence!

Many thanks s for this self examining thread, David



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firebird
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Posted - 10/31/2008 :  12:44:49  Show Profile
In order to feel good, we have to do good. Its posed as a question. Why does it make me think, 'if you are not feeling good, is it because you are doing evil'?. There are many murderouse tyrants in the world who are happy in their 'work'.
I must admit that doing something bad has made me feel depressed and bad and doing something good has made me feel self esteem and good. but not always. Often I have strived and done good things but the effects of feeling good from it have been only short lived. Maybe this is due to a deep problem with self esteem that mere acts of selflessness cannot alter. I still prefer to do acts of good on principal, even though I get depressed. It does not mean I am a bad person, I hope.
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